Oh, I thought you backtracked that immediately. So that means your god isn’t actually all-powerful, right? There exists some higher concept of good and evil to which he is bound, which he cannot violate?
Who made that concept? Why is god able to do anything except create free will without evil? He created the concept of free will, why can’t he create it differently?
I think I’m starting to understand where we differ
Option 1: humans cannot do evil, only good (not free will)
Option 2: humans can do good and/or evil
Why imagine an illogical reality where both of these things can be true, we don’t live in it. Being all powerful means such a reality can be made, but god chose not to make it. He bound us by this logic, not the other way around
This also gives the opportunity for a human being to turn away from evil at great sacrifice to themselves and choose to do good, and such a morally good act wouldn’t be a good act if they had no choice. Why can’t the argument then be reversed, if good exists in the world then god is either good or powerless to stop it
Why imagine an illogical reality where both of these things can be true, we don’t live in it.
Because that’s the topic of discussion: why is the world the way it is? This approach to discussion is one I see time and time again with religious people. You claim your god is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-knowing, while simultaneously binding him to your own rules of logic. Questions beyond that don’t fit into that framework and are blocked off with “that’s just not how things are”.
Being all powerful means such a reality can be made, but god chose not to make it. He bound us by this logic, not the other way around
Exactly, that’s my point! The only logical conclusion is: your god chose to create evil. You can of course say that it’s necessary for some reason, but IMO unless I can learn this reason there’s no way for your god to actually be all-loving. That’s exactly what abusers do - they say they’re abusing you for your own good, it just has to be this way!
This also gives the opportunity for a human being to turn away from evil at great sacrifice to themselves and choose to do good, and such a morally good act wouldn’t be a good act if they had no choice.
Why not? Who made that rule? Once again, it was made by your god. Why did he choose the rules so evil must happen for good to happen?
Why can’t the argument then be reversed, if good exists in the world then god is either good or powerless to stop it
You’re trying to twist the logic towards absolutes. Just because good exists doesn’t mean god is all good, just like evil existing doesn’t mean god is all evil. But evil existing does mean that god is not all good.
Questions beyond that don’t fit into that framework and are blocked off with “that’s just not how things are”.
Fair enough, I can accept that. We live in a reality where you cannot have free will and only good at the same time. I can’t imagine anything different so I can’t follow you in that line of thinking, and since no such reality does exist it’s a moot point
Exactly, that’s my point! The only logical conclusion is: your god chose to create evil. You can of course say that it’s necessary for some reason, but IMO unless I can learn this reason there’s no way for your god to actually be all-loving. That’s exactly what abusers do - they say they’re abusing you for your own good, it just has to be this way!
So following your analogy of abusers, if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, gives you the free will to follow it or not, and you don’t, did they abuse you?
Why not? Who made that rule? Once again, it was made by your god. Why did he choose the rules so evil must happen for good to happen?
I get what you’re saying but going back to the first point, this is the only reality we live in. Do you have any response that doesn’t involve rejecting our reality? Can we say based on our current reality the freedom to do evil was necessary for goodness?
None of the positive things we’ve made as humans would have been possible without free thought, not electricity not the internet not architecture. If you want to imagine such a reality where this is possible without the capacity for evil then you’re welcome to but it doesn’t exist, so it serves nothing but avoiding the question
You’re trying to twist the logic towards absolutes. Just because good exists doesn’t mean god is all good, just like evil existing doesn’t mean god is all evil. But evil existing does mean that god is not all good.
So follow that train of thought then, what is the inverse? What are the good things that show god can be good, stack them up against the evil things that show god can be evil (real madadam hours here)
How does heaven and hell factor into the equation? Would you accept that on the day of judgement and a neutral observer rewards the good and punishes the evil and subsequently allows only good onwards then god will be all good in your eyes?
Oh, I thought you backtracked that immediately. So that means your god isn’t actually all-powerful, right? There exists some higher concept of good and evil to which he is bound, which he cannot violate?
Who made that concept? Why is god able to do anything except create free will without evil? He created the concept of free will, why can’t he create it differently?
I think I’m starting to understand where we differ
Option 1: humans cannot do evil, only good (not free will)
Option 2: humans can do good and/or evil
Why imagine an illogical reality where both of these things can be true, we don’t live in it. Being all powerful means such a reality can be made, but god chose not to make it. He bound us by this logic, not the other way around
This also gives the opportunity for a human being to turn away from evil at great sacrifice to themselves and choose to do good, and such a morally good act wouldn’t be a good act if they had no choice. Why can’t the argument then be reversed, if good exists in the world then god is either good or powerless to stop it
Because that’s the topic of discussion: why is the world the way it is? This approach to discussion is one I see time and time again with religious people. You claim your god is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-knowing, while simultaneously binding him to your own rules of logic. Questions beyond that don’t fit into that framework and are blocked off with “that’s just not how things are”.
Exactly, that’s my point! The only logical conclusion is: your god chose to create evil. You can of course say that it’s necessary for some reason, but IMO unless I can learn this reason there’s no way for your god to actually be all-loving. That’s exactly what abusers do - they say they’re abusing you for your own good, it just has to be this way!
Why not? Who made that rule? Once again, it was made by your god. Why did he choose the rules so evil must happen for good to happen?
You’re trying to twist the logic towards absolutes. Just because good exists doesn’t mean god is all good, just like evil existing doesn’t mean god is all evil. But evil existing does mean that god is not all good.
Fair enough, I can accept that. We live in a reality where you cannot have free will and only good at the same time. I can’t imagine anything different so I can’t follow you in that line of thinking, and since no such reality does exist it’s a moot point
So following your analogy of abusers, if someone recommends an objectively good course of action, gives you the free will to follow it or not, and you don’t, did they abuse you?
I get what you’re saying but going back to the first point, this is the only reality we live in. Do you have any response that doesn’t involve rejecting our reality? Can we say based on our current reality the freedom to do evil was necessary for goodness?
None of the positive things we’ve made as humans would have been possible without free thought, not electricity not the internet not architecture. If you want to imagine such a reality where this is possible without the capacity for evil then you’re welcome to but it doesn’t exist, so it serves nothing but avoiding the question
So follow that train of thought then, what is the inverse? What are the good things that show god can be good, stack them up against the evil things that show god can be evil (real madadam hours here)
How does heaven and hell factor into the equation? Would you accept that on the day of judgement and a neutral observer rewards the good and punishes the evil and subsequently allows only good onwards then god will be all good in your eyes?